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Game Master
Posts: 346
 
| Please try to be specific on your feedback on the classes. Refrain from being general by just saying simply that X class or Y skill is overpowered/underpowered, but give reasons and evidence. Data is welcome.
We are gathering suggestions and ways to change the Warrior/Berserker class. We welcome complaints and issues about the class also. Let your voice be heard! |
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Lunatic Rabbit
Posts: 184
| Just a suggestion, i think that warrior are alredy perfect but what about increasing bleeding/burning % rate?
I mean 12% to activate is quite useless, increase at least to 20 or 30
Edited by whipme 10/30/2009 1:58 PM
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Stone Lion
Posts: 301
| My opinion is that they're overpowered compared to knaves.
Evidence:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_cT5seRrD4
Edited by Zhao 10/30/2009 1:59 PM
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Lunatic Rabbit
Posts: 184
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LOL
Anyway i didn't see the video because it's still on elaboration but are u comparing zerk with a knave LOL?
Why would a thief be as strong as a warrior???
Insane...
Edited by whipme 10/30/2009 2:04 PM
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Stone Lion
Posts: 301
| i didn't say that knaves should be as strong as warrior o.o
I just want damage that has a reasonable balance between them.
Could you please respect my opinion?
Edited by Zhao 10/30/2009 2:56 PM
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Lunatic Rabbit
Posts: 184
| Zhao - 10/30/2009 2:36 PM
i didn't say that knaves should be stronger than warrior o.o
I just want damage that has a reasonable balance between them.
I wrote "as strong as" not "stronger" and I didn't know what you wanted to say with your other post because your video was and still is unavalaible so i just read the title and I took my conclusion.
-IT
I pvped with a Knave lvl 81 and as i see you have very fast skill (he killed me once) weaker then zerk (of corse) but way faster. There absolutely anything to balance between classes, maybe knave skill must be faster but this is a warrior/zerk topic.
Thief complain topic is down here |
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Stone Lion
Posts: 352
Location: Somewhere on Earth | well i agree with zhao we did the test between moro even though i had the lag (you can see the video by the way) there is a difference between the knave and zerker, zerker being especially overpowered i realised that i can kill monsters that are 15 levels above me with ease and quickly to.
To be honest all classes should have a similiar balance so its fair on everyone do you know how long it takes a preist to kill mad totems AGES. Also this would be fair in PvP to.
Edited by Perfections 10/31/2009 3:54 AM
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Lunatic Rabbit
Posts: 218
| Maybe its not so much the zerker being overpowered, its the knave being underpowered.
Perhaps reducing the raw damage on the warrior/zerkers weapons will help balance the damage difference, a slight reduction of the weapon damage. The %s of the attack skills is high enough, to back it up with a very high damage weapon makes it somewhat overpowered, that plus buffs. Reducing it won't make it a massive nerf because it'll be balanced by the fact that we have buffs to boost our damage by a large amount.
Either that or leave the damage how it is and scale up the weapon damage for other classes or scale up the %s for other classes skills.
The damage output isn't really an issue in PvP, because as it stands now, pretty much every class dies in a single hit if one person successfully hits with a skill. I died in a single cast against an assassin.
Edited by Mediocre 10/30/2009 3:43 PM
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Lunatic Rabbit
Posts: 184
| I still think berserker are perfect... Warrior must be strong for several reason:
-slow skill
-full contact fighting
-lol warrior class isn't alredy a good reason?
This is a video that i made just give a look if you don't have ever played a warrior or f you don't know skills
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyJqQetk5YA
Edited by whipme 10/30/2009 4:19 PM
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Dust Ghost
Posts: 673
| whipme - 10/30/2009 4:18 PM
I still think berserker are perfect... Warrior must be strong for several reason:
-slow skill
-full contact fighting
-lol warrior class isn't alredy a good reason?
This is a video that i made just give a look if you don't have ever played a warrior or f you don't know skills
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyJqQetk5YA
Berserk is perfect on PVE but not on PVP, that's the only conflict that I see on this class. |
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Chups
Posts: 110
| Please stop bickering about this class being overpowered than that
This is about giving information on how to change BERSERKER keep it as that
I personally like Warrior right now
I think once the STR stat is fixed (right now STR doesnt help nearly enough, I wanna make a Full STR Zerker lol!)
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Stone Lion
Posts: 368
Location: Bay Area | everyone complains about them being over powered but you have to factor in that they have almost 0 critical, very little evasion, slow, have no range, and take the most hits. so obviously their plus's will be that they have high attack and high defense. the warriors are not superior to any other class, and they are balanced fine |
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Stone Lion
Posts: 421
| yea right, no range. Im not too worried about PVE, its pvp im worried about. 1 hit KOs are a pain. here are the facts
with the lag, its soo easy to 1 hit KO.
ninjas and rogues almost never dodge attacks in PVP, its a real pain
they are slow, but the only class that is fast are ninjas and rogues, and even mega flare/energy ball is slow
it takes a bit of skills to kill them
sorry i didnt put a solution. I think the solution is to make DEX worth more in terms of both DMG and accuracy with the standard 40 dex a warrior almost never misses, make them miss just more. thats what they get in exchange for power, but dont make them like maplestory. rogues/ninjas should never ever get hit if the enemy is a DEXless without equips, but that doesnt happen. And make the DMG for each class weaker for PVP, I dont like pvp lasting only 5 seconds
Edited by arotwilight 10/30/2009 9:37 PM
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Lunatic Rabbit
Posts: 218
| But its like that for all classes, I got pretty much one hit KOed by a ninja doing the fire breath. nearly every class can't take more than 1 hit from a skill in PVP.
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| Warriors are overpowered in PvP. One attack (I think it was burning slash) can one-hit-ko me in PvP even though we are the same level. So I hope that you can reduce the warriors damage in pvp. (Along with all the other classes damage too so that the pvp match will last longer.) |
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Lunatic Rabbit
Posts: 184
| arotwilight - 10/30/2009 9:30 PM
with the standard 40 dex a warrior almost never misses,
LOL, go play a warrior plz and try... If you alredy have it, lvl up more, if you are alredy high lvl look at the embarassing amount of Miss when you train in place 10lvl higher then you.
I have 85 DEX i'm lvl 77 and i still miss at rogcan 20% of times.
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Stone Lion
Posts: 352
Location: Somewhere on Earth | whipme - 10/31/2009 12:37 AM
arotwilight - 10/30/2009 9:30 PM
with the standard 40 dex a warrior almost never misses, LOL, go play a warrior plz and try... If you alredy have it, lvl up more, if you are alredy high lvl look at the embarassing amount of Miss when you train in place 10lvl higher then you. I have 85 DEX i'm lvl 77 and i still miss at rogcan 20% of times.
I agree with you that person needs a facepalm i have 120 dex and i still miss sometimes mobs 2 levels higher |
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Stone Lion
Posts: 1362
| I think its well balanced in pve for zerker after all they are a DMG BASED CLASS, but to make it fair in pvp debuff war cry and rage or make so that you cant stack rage and war cry in pvp. Oh and zhao dont forget ALL THE pots i burn in 5mins.
Edited by DarkLyger 10/31/2009 2:30 PM
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Lunatic Rabbit
Posts: 184
| Glitch or what? When i use rage at can i take 310 dmg without rage i take 60dmg but rage it supposed to decreas def by 50%.
MATH: 60 is 20+/-% of 310 => def is decreased by 80% not 50...
Reflecting about rage, this skill is a double cut weapon, zerk don't recieve anymore KB, good thing right but to see dmg recieved is very difficult (no kb and big red aura that confuse your sight) = more chance to die.
Edited by whipme 10/31/2009 2:47 PM
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Dust Ghost
Posts: 2721
Location: NYC | bobbyman3 - 10/30/2009 8:59 PM
so obviously their plus's will be that they have high attack and high defense
They are not supposed to have high defense. They are supposed to have low defense.
And vice versa for knights. |
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Lunatic Rabbit
Posts: 184
| Musical - 10/31/2009 4:10 PM
bobbyman3 - 10/30/2009 8:59 PM
so obviously their plus's will be that they have high attack and high defense
They are not supposed to have high defense. They are supposed to have low defense.
And vice versa for knights.
Indeed Rage destroy ur defence, it's a dangerous skill if don't always pay attention to hp |
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Lunatic Rabbit
Posts: 218
| Which is usually offset by doing a VIT build, another thing that can be exploited is that you can take off your armours before casting rage because it takes 50% of your current defense, if your defense is near zero then you lose nearly no defense and still have the bonus damage then afterwards you put the armours back on. I don't always do this but its something you can keep in mind when training/grinding.
I am a berzerker and even i somewhat agree that the damage for the class compared to other classes is very lopsided. I don't think its due to the imbalance of the class however, its mainly due to the scaling of the equipment. I saw a level 58 rogue weapon (yellow weapon) and the attack range was only 264~268 with a damage modifier of +130. A lvl 58 rune blade for warrior is 105~582, even a STOCK one is stronger than the rogues yellow weapon, and the yellow version of a rune blade has a much higher modifers of around mid to high 200s. A yellow Valiant Blade, a LVL 30 warrior weapon is almost equivalent to the damage of the lvl 58 rogue weapon with an attack of 60~237 with a damage modifer averaging around the 60s-90s.
Now I know the warrior is suppose to be stronger than the rest of the classes, but the margin at the moment is way way too big due to the weapons. The weapons alone have a huge margin, the margin just gets impossibly bigger when we cast rage + war cry, outdamaging other classes even 20 or 30 or even 40 levels ahead of us.
Edited by Mediocre 10/31/2009 5:49 PM
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Lunatic Rabbit
Posts: 114
| To me a zerker has way more burst damage then a knave could dream of or any class on that matter. Sure a zerker might attack slower have less def, however how does that matter when you 2 hit everything in your path? As for crit on a warrior, take a lv 115 red sword winnie on kado has. Its 29x-18xx damage, then +8xx damage , and 69 crit total. I mean in GvG she hit for well over 29k damage over and over...
90% of zerkers are going to agree that they are not over powered for one reason. Because they don't want a nerf. The fact is, and its been proven over and over, a zerker has way to much damage in PvP and Pve compared to other classes at the same level. To be killed with in one shot in PvP as a paladin that is should be able to TANK damage, is messed up on so many levels. Another thing is hp on a zerker almost matches that of a paladin with out a buff. Paladins are known as tanks for their def and HP. If zerkers are going to be this over powered, they shouldn't come close to hp that a paladin has.
Warriors are a damage based class, however i think that the damage part has been over killed by the devs. Its clear to everyone that 1 of 2 things needs to be done. Nerf warriors damage , or buff all the other classes. |
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Stone Lion
Posts: 801
Location: WonderPlus | I am a lv. 83 Knave.
I can be killed in 1 hit by a lv. 38 Warrior.
I think the problem is painfully obvious. |
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Lunatic Rabbit
Posts: 218
| Well I am a zerker too but I don't believe its the skills that are imbalanced, I believe its more to do with the weapons, the marginal difference between x level warrior weapon vs other classes weapons, the damage margin is MASSIVE.
Its silly to see a lvl 30 warrior weapon almost matching a lvl 58 knave weapon, that's a 28 lvl difference and yet the warrior can match the knave in damage despite this. Scale the weapon damage down for warrior a bit or scale the weapon damage up for the other classes so the damage gap won't be too great. I know the devs attempted to offset this by making the damage range of 2h weapons massive to somewhat create a bit of inconsistency with big damage but to be honest, that hasn't been too much of an issue for me because yellow equipment with damage modifiers almost effectively removes that little weakness. Even without the modifier, if you calculate the average damage from the weapon, its effectively higher or near equal than some classes MAXIMUM damage they can hit from the weapon.
For example, A lvl 58 rune blade for warrior is 105~582 with NO damage modifier has an average damage of 343 damage or so, that is nearly equal damage to a level 58 knave's MAXIMUM damage with a lvl 58 weapon WITH a damage modifier. Not to mention that since the damage range max is at 582, the warrior can potentially deal MORE than the knaves maximum damage. Add the modifier into the equation on the rune blade and its no competition. A knave would have to enchant his/her weapon +5 times to even MATCH or get close to a +0 warrior weapon of the same level.
The warrior's 2h weapon SHOULD still be stronger than other classes weapons of the same level but the gap should not be too big. Still I would rather see a scaling up in weapon damage of the other classes rather than a scaling down from the warrior.
Edited by Mediocre 10/31/2009 6:28 PM
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Chups
Posts: 82
| Personally, the only problem with scaling up the other classes is that it would mean that they would have to scale the enemies HP as well in responds to the overall damage increase of the other classes. And in the long run, that sounds like a more convoluted way Nerf the warrior.
And while many people think that warrior should be stronger than thieves, remember that thief are usually always linked to an assassin type class, and while a warrior would smash enemies with their big weapons, the thief simply maneuvers around the enemies defenses and strike the weak points. isn't that stated in the knave's description on the site? and isn't it also stated on the character creation section in the game that thief scarifies defense for offense, or something along those line?
personally, warrior should have big numbers while knaves should be able to annihilate enemies faster even though they shouldn't annihilate a whole crowd in seconds. |
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Lunatic Rabbit
Posts: 218
| Don't change the skill tree, if something needs to be nerfed or should be nerfed, it should be the warriors damage on the weapons. |
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Lunatic Rabbit
Posts: 184
| OizenXZ - 10/31/2009 5:52 PM
I am a lv. 83 Knave.
I can be killed in 1 hit by a lv. 38 Warrior.
I think the problem is painfully obvious.
I don't think this is possible
You guys just look at the dmg... That's your problem, there are so many factor that you don't see..
1- I'm in a vit build and with rage activated I'm constantly in danger (no knockback, difficult to see dmg recieved, and -50% def)
2- Lol take off armor? Ye everytime i need to cast rage i need to spent 1 min taking off clothets and wear them back... INSANE
3- Did somebody tryied to look at our skill speed? No eh... Crash down is extermely slow, so is burning slash flame gazer and dragon bite... a knave-ninja has skills way way faster that also if you miss the target you can still escape... (WE CAN'T)
4-All what i see in this topic is knave whining of loss pvp matches, but for curiosity i tryied to pvp with a knave (lvl 81) and my dragon bite - dragon kaiser NEVER 1 HITTED him... And i lost also a match because i missed a lot... (it's not a dex problem trust me)
Berzerker DON'T want a nerf because we EVERYBODY know that this class is perfect like this, all people that want a zerker nerf are just people that don't know how is to play a zerker...
SUGGESTION TO DEVs:
As someone said block war cry and rage during PVP because this 2 skill are the only reason of the OMGhe1hitKOme!!! All matches i did without this two buffs was equilibrated and without 1 hit KO...
And obviously.. Don't touch warrior/zerker skill or dmg... Perfect equilibrium is rare... When you reach it be aware of not destroy it...
Edited by whipme 10/31/2009 7:26 PM
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Lunatic Rabbit
Posts: 218
| its not hard to take off and put your armour back on in PvE, obviously PvP is impossible. It's only a small inconvenience of just jumping on a platform and doing all of that. Of course i don't always do it and its impossible to do in PvP. You only do this when grinding/training.
The attack speed/skill speed is negligible, there is like little cast delay before the skill comes out and does the burst damage - burning slash and dragon bite is NOT slow, flame gazer and crash down is though, I HAVE a zerker and I know the "skill speed" isn't an issue in PvE anyway, why would it be? The monster AI is silly anyway, you can even mob effectively with Rising dragon and to a lesser extent, fist of ifrit, those are slow skills too but deal massive damage.
In PvP yeah its a minor problem, in fact in PvP zerkers are not really a problem because like I've said before, nearly EVERY class dies in a single blow if someone successfully nails 1 skill in on someone. In fact, they're a little overrated in PvP. I just think they're a little overpowered PvE wise.
When you're looking at it in terms of PvE wise which is going to be the majority of your gameplay, the damage is really the only thing you really NEED to look at. Grinding/training speed is heavily in the warriors/zerkers favour because he can kill up to 3-4 times as fast than any other class and solo bosses better too, and even complete quest easier too and with higher damage you can take on higher level monsters sooner as well and train efficiently, other classes can too but it'll take them longer to kill one monster or a wave making it inefficient for them to train at higher level monsters.
Edited by Mediocre 10/31/2009 7:46 PM
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Lunatic Rabbit
Posts: 114
| whipme - 10/31/2009 7:23 PM
OizenXZ - 10/31/2009 5:52 PM
I am a lv. 83 Knave.
I can be killed in 1 hit by a lv. 38 Warrior.
I think the problem is painfully obvious.
I don't think this is possible
You guys just look at the dmg... That's your problem, there are so many factor that you don't see..
1- I'm in a vit build and with rage activated I'm constantly in danger (no knockback, difficult to see dmg recieved, and -50% def )
2- Lol take off armor? Ye everytime i need to cast rage i need to spent 1 min taking off clothets and wear them back... INSANE
3- Did somebody tryied to look at our skill speed? No eh... Crash down is extermely slow, so is burning slash flame gazer and dragon bite... a knave-ninja has skills way way faster that also if you miss the target you can still escape... (WE CAN'T )
4-All what i see in this topic is knave whining of loss pvp matches, but for curiosity i tryied to pvp with a knave (lvl 81 ) and my dragon bite - dragon kaiser NEVER 1 HITTED him... And i lost also a match because i missed a lot... (it's not a dex problem trust me )
Berzerker DON'T want a nerf because we EVERYBODY know that this class is perfect like this, all people that want a zerker nerf are just people that don't know how is to play a zerker...
SUGGESTION TO DEVs:
As someone said block war cry and rage during PVP because this 2 skill are the only reason of the OMGhe1hitKOme!!! All matches i did without this two buffs was equilibrated and without 1 hit KO...
And obviously.. Don't touch warrior/zerker skill or dmg... Perfect equilibrium is rare... When you reach it be aware of not destroy it...
Your skills might be slow, however the fact is you kill faster then a knave. Your weapon damage is insanely higher then other classes by at least 20 levels. As for the everyone knows the class is perfect, made me laugh. Even zerkers themselves say the class is unbalanced compared to other classes, in pve and pvp. A guildie who has a 125 Assassin, and is leveling a zerker said himself that zerkers have way to much DPS for their levels. That even with the DEF reduction, they might spam pots more, however the speed in which they kill makes up for that. A warrior over lv100 has well over 5k hp. I'm pretty sure a monster doesn't hit you for 1k every single hit. In fact its much less then that, so I really don't see how you have a hard time living.
Like the person above said. It's not the skill, its the weapon margin. The area of it is way to high. |
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Stone Lion
Posts: 1362
| WhiteKnight - 10/31/2009 7:43 PM
whipme - 10/31/2009 7:23 PM
OizenXZ - 10/31/2009 5:52 PM
I am a lv. 83 Knave.
I can be killed in 1 hit by a lv. 38 Warrior.
I think the problem is painfully obvious.
I don't think this is possible
You guys just look at the dmg... That's your problem, there are so many factor that you don't see..
1- I'm in a vit build and with rage activated I'm constantly in danger (no knockback, difficult to see dmg recieved, and -50% def )
2- Lol take off armor? Ye everytime i need to cast rage i need to spent 1 min taking off clothets and wear them back... INSANE
3- Did somebody tryied to look at our skill speed? No eh... Crash down is extermely slow, so is burning slash flame gazer and dragon bite... a knave-ninja has skills way way faster that also if you miss the target you can still escape... (WE CAN'T )
4-All what i see in this topic is knave whining of loss pvp matches, but for curiosity i tryied to pvp with a knave (lvl 81 ) and my dragon bite - dragon kaiser NEVER 1 HITTED him... And i lost also a match because i missed a lot... (it's not a dex problem trust me )
Berzerker DON'T want a nerf because we EVERYBODY know that this class is perfect like this, all people that want a zerker nerf are just people that don't know how is to play a zerker...
SUGGESTION TO DEVs:
As someone said block war cry and rage during PVP because this 2 skill are the only reason of the OMGhe1hitKOme!!! All matches i did without this two buffs was equilibrated and without 1 hit KO...
And obviously.. Don't touch warrior/zerker skill or dmg... Perfect equilibrium is rare... When you reach it be aware of not destroy it...
Your skills might be slow, however the fact is you kill faster then a knave. Your weapon damage is insanely higher then other classes by at least 20 levels. As for the everyone knows the class is perfect, made me laugh. Even zerkers themselves say the class is unbalanced compared to other classes, in pve and pvp. A guildie who has a 125 Assassin, and is leveling a zerker said himself that zerkers have way to much DPS for their levels. That even with the DEF reduction, they might spam pots more, however the speed in which they kill makes up for that. A warrior over lv100 has well over 5k hp. I'm pretty sure a monster doesn't hit you for 1k every single hit. In fact its much less then that, so I really don't see how you have a hard time living.
Like the person above said. It's not the skill, its the weapon margin. The area of it is way to high.
Zerkers are infact perfect they just need to work on burning slash and war cry(nerf these two) , ya can't blame zerkers for killing insanly fast i've wasted 5m going from 110-120 already.......... But the classes that have been whinning most are knaves and mages, look at ninjas ppl tell me if they aren't oped!!
Edited by DarkLyger 10/31/2009 8:43 PM
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Stone Lion
Posts: 801
Location: WonderPlus | whipme - 10/31/2009 10:23 PM
OizenXZ - 10/31/2009 5:52 PM
I am a lv. 83 Knave.
I can be killed in 1 hit by a lv. 38 Warrior.
I think the problem is painfully obvious.
I don't think this is possible
The person who kills me in one hit is PVPME.
Very Possible. I have top notch Knave equips. Don't even try saying its my defense.
Edited by OizenXZ 10/31/2009 9:12 PM
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Lunatic Rabbit
Posts: 218
| @ DarkLyger
Every single class experience the issue of burning pots. Imagine what you're experiencing plus taking much longer to kill the mobs, that is how it would be for most other classes (beside a knight).
Most zerkers say that its balanced due to the 50% negative to defense after rage, come now, be realistic, reality is you only take like an extra 200-300 or so damage with rage on to deal over 2x your already high attack damage, the extra damage taken isn't that big and given the stat system (unrelated topic), most zerkers would go VIT anyway, so you'll have lots of HP + damage.
Like i said before the skills don't really need tweaking, War cry is only 33% at max level, the problem is that the weapon attack is too high and the skills is boosting that high figure up by whatever % the skill gives to something even larger in damage output. There's nothing wrong with the %s in the skills, its just that they become powerful because they're taking in a % of a large figure on the weapons.
Edited by Mediocre 10/31/2009 9:27 PM
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Chups
Posts: 110
| Didnt really think of too much earlier but....
You have to take into account this is when STR doesnt do a whole lot
What if they fix STR? To the people advocating for berzerkers being balanced.
Well whole balance would go out of whack quite quickly |
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Lunatic Rabbit
Posts: 218
| Not necessarily, if they scale the weapons down and put a higher impact on STR, it'll make people less inclined to do an all out VIT build, so basically you can either have massive damage and lower HP or high HP and lower damage. |
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Let your voice be heard! - Warrior/Berserkers
